AviCAP has helped many players get foothold and successful startup on Idlewild. Because of cheap leases, airlines were able to get foothold in competitive markets or off the ground in hostile countries. Without it, airlines like this one wouldn't exit. It would be many players less paying credits on the server. It;s not easy to run an airline in North Africa, Vietnam, or a range of other countries, on established worlds where every major hub is occupied with tens of foreign airlines running hundreds of daily flights to your own hub, when you start up.
Having said that, I would like to point any interested parties to contact us and we are open for business and we welcome new startup airlines. Please contact us for terms and conditions.
I don't think Leasing as a business is ever truly profitable in this game.
Even with a full lease income, you have to lease it out at some 3.8 (real) years. That means, you can only hope to make any money if you are really in for the LONG TERM.
You can easily sell the airframe after 3.8a at 30% book value and make a gross profit of roundabout 25%. Not that much, but on a 739 that equals to 86k$ a week.
Of course you wouldn’t lease out at 100%, but even at 80%, there would be a slight profit.
You can easily sell the airframe after 3.8a at 30% book value and make a gross profit of roundabout 25%. Not that much, but on a 739 that equals to 86k$ a week.
Of course you wouldn’t lease out at 100%, but even at 80%, there would be a slight profit.
But hardly at 10%.
Your premise is based on assumption that people like buying old planes even for 30% of book value. Just look on the used markets, they are full of 4-6 year old aircraft that nobody takes. They might take them for 10% (which actually would be a 15% buying price) but not for more.
Well it is completely legal but it is as I previously said about moral. First of all canceling a contract is pretty rude on all occasions but some excuses are more accepted than others. Cancelling because one does not want a certain individual to have the plane is what I call bad moral. As there is only an open market everyone should have the chance to get that plane. I understand the initiative to help new players but how does that selection process work? Who will get help? I fully accept and understand giving out cheap leases but then they should be to everyone even if specifically intended to one person but everyone shall be able to bid. I don't see a problem to help a certain individual regardless of experience or influence. I have three planes leased for 20% from an alliance member. I only had the resources to overbid for two of them. Thereby the third 737 got leased out to Highlander who still leases the plane at a very cheap rate, even if he is on the alliance blacklist. I have previously suggest a private leasing market as well which could send these planes directly to the prospect passing by the open market. I cant say I have not benefited from this I have bought a couple almost new A330s for 7 million each while they should have been "transferred" between certain members of an alliance.
Then also comes another issue of moral. Should the biggest player on the world try to snitch planes meant for beginners? I would say no.
I understand that this was the case, since your alliance pretty much dominates the 737s. However although I voted that cheap leases should be banned. I can't comment as I have benefited also from the system, although persuaded by other comments I would now change my vote to allowing cheap leases
I have no problem with it. I have been both the beneficiary of, and provider of such leases. Soon enough I shall start another leasing company, and will be helping startups as well. I can say that I have never cancelled a lease once an agreement has been made. If the “wrong” person gets it, that’s unfortunate for me and the person I was trying to help. Hopefully I would have another one, but if not, life goes on.
The problem with InferiorNero is that his moral compass is only pointing north when it suits him. What he convieniantly want people not to know is all the antics he pulled on Pearls cos that would hurt his impressionable base of supporters that gathered around him as of late… A simple “no” vote from him would have been appropriate, but as George pointed out, InferiorNero has to continue spreading his message on every single topic since months. I sincerely hope that this thread will stay on track and not be turned into another soapbox for him to stand on.
Cheap lease deals between friendly airlines or better block hour rates are common in real life airline business just like not releasing spare parts to competitive airlines are. On a brand new world this topic is pretty mute. All of the older game worlds started the same way. I don’t see anything wrong with die hard fans on these worlds helping out alliance members or friendly players with cheap deals. After all isn’t that why there is a Mediamarkt and Saturn around every corner?
I've voted "yes" "no" but I don't think that arguments along the lines of "they're my planes, free enterprise" etc. are enough to support this.
AirlineSim limits the free market in many areas. There are rules governing which aircraft I can operate on which rules, what prices I may charges and with whom I interline.
Similar appeals to realism are not sufficient: many things are allowed, and indeed occur, in real life that AS rules explicitly prohibit.
Whether helping new players is within the spirit of the game is in my opinion up for discussion. If I am allowed to give cheap leases, why should I not be allowed to transfer cash directly? My personal answer is that with leases at least the supporting company needs to lay a certain amount of capital aside for this - I need to buy the aircraft before I can lease it out cheaply - but that's just my opinion.
ETA: misunderstood the question in the same way as highlander above.
Your premise is based on assumption that people like buying old planes even for 30% of book value. Just look on the used markets, they are full of 4-6 year old aircraft that nobody takes. They might take them for 10% (which actually would be a 15% buying price) but not for more.
Offer me a 4 years old 73J for <8m$ and I wouldn’t hesitate a second to buy it.
Not an assumption, only experience. This experience also rarely ever showed me an airframe on the used market for <30%. And if there was, then not for too long. On “my” server at least.
Of course, what do I know… I’ve been playing this game for only close to 13 years now.
It's interesting to see the vote split. Those that are against cheap leases are couple of the known noisy usernames, and the rest of the "against votes" are virtually all players who clearly cannot sustain a functioning airline even on Quimby/Otto, as the Google search reveals. On the other hand, the players whose Google search for username does not come up with 100+ liquidated airlines in the past 2 months are the ones who support cheap leases (vs the Yes camp whose usernames are spamming then google database with pages and pages of liquidated airlines :lol: ).
It's also interesting to see the usernames of many new players to support the cheap leases camp. It show that they understand that if they make a serious effort to start a serious airline, and play nicely and try to create relationships in the game, one day they themselves can benefit from a similar generous offer.
It's interesting to see the vote split. Those that are against cheap leases are couple of the known noisy usernames, and the rest of the "against votes" are virtually all players who clearly cannot sustain a functioning airline even on Quimby/Otto, as the Google search reveals. On the other hand, the players whose Google search for username does not come up with 100+ liquidated airlines in the past 2 months are the ones who support cheap leases (vs the Yes camp whose usernames are spamming then google database with pages and pages of liquidated airlines :lol: ).
It's also interesting to see the usernames of many new players to support the cheap leases camp. It show that they understand that if they make a serious effort to start a serious airline, and play nicely and try to create relationships in the game, one day they themselves can benefit from a similar generous offer.
This is a very telling information.
Is it also telling how a known cheater, you, votes? It is amazing that you are permitted to continue posting on this forum with your consent insults to anyone with a different view of the game than you. According to you, only whiners and failures are against the giving cheap leases. Sad really. Maybe if you spent less time insulting people on this board and a little more time figuring out how in manipulate the stock market, you wouldn't have gotten caught.
Guys, all. Please keep it to the point and not against each other.
Bring arguments for or against the rule, but leave the personal attacks out.
Sorry Matth, with all respect, but in my view this statement is too soft. There is only a small group of players here in the forum who envenom the climate of almost every thread by attacking different-minded people underneath the beltline. you (and other moderators) can say what you want, these guys do it again and again as they never face consequences.
i would really apprecciate clear words for them and also harsh consequences if they dont change their behaviour.
just another statement: please also differentiate between the forum-trolls and people who usually behave decently but only sometimes fire back on these trolls because their patience reaches it's limit.
I forgot that ImperatorNero is Viennabert, the largest USA airline on Aspern who feels threatened by a competition, who feels that a successful and progressive company that recently started competing with him is encroaching on his territory. He feels threatened, he feels cornered, he feels he is losing the market. No wonder he is screaming at full volume. Makes sense now, I totally forgot about it when I wrote the previous post.
Yes, we can do a poll, that multi-account independent different game world shall be illegal :P
It should be as it is, because it promotes cooperation between players. As for the moral issue regarding wrong airline taking the aircraft I usually send a IGM to the airline and mostly the players cancels lease himself.
Even if it´s legal - I don´t like these cheap leasings. They contradict a main principle of Airlinesim: Equal chances!
Some players on existing game worlds have an abundance of money. With cheap leasings, they can support whom they like, and hold off players they don´t like. Indirectly they can catch any market they want. Its a bit like those boys on the playground, that decided who may play there and who may not.
Big players that discourage newcomers is a main problem of existing game worlds; we all know in what agony some of them are. If we want a more exciting game, we should think about how to make it more challenging for big players, and more dynamic for newcomers. In my opinion, cheap leasing is not helpful for the gameplay.
Big players that discourage newcomers is a main problem of existing game worlds; we all know in what agony some of them are. If we want a more exciting game, we should think about how to make it more challenging for big players, and more dynamic for newcomers. In my opinion, cheap leasing is not helpful for the gameplay.
You can get 20-25 used aircraft with 10 M and start quite a big network from day 1. I managed to get new operation just a few months ago up to 300+ (classic) aircraft in less than a month. I was at 100+ aircraft in 15 days. It is not impossible if you know what to do and have proper strategy. Nobody gave me cheap leases and I managed to thrive, even with the biggest airline holding in that market being very hostile against me. Your claim that cheap leasing is unhelpful to gameplay is simply not true. It does not affect gameplay in negative way, it actually hs a very positive impact*. Cheap leasing does not make a successful airline. Strategy does. What cheap leases only do, repeat only do, is to save hours of time switching flight plans to a new airline 60 days down the road from classic aircraft to new modern aircraft once you have 100+ million in the bank and create a new sub and start switching the aircraft into the new sub. In this way, cheap leases allow you to avoid that in the future, as you start with new aircraft right from the get-go. You can go bankrupt with cheap leases if you do not know what you are doing and you can make billions starting with 20 old clunkers if you do know.
* Cheap leasing is very helpful actually. Most of the time the players who get cheap leases tend to stay longer in the gameworld because a) they have better chance to succeed, and b ) they usually get some mentoring from the lessor which further increases their chances to succeed. Frequently lessors provide further assistance to such players, be it access to interline agreements, terminals, etc.
I think an excellent option would be to offer new players an option when starting up new holding:
- 10 M starting capital and access to private leases since day one (including 10% cheap leases)
- 30 M starting capital and no access to private leases for 60 days (same as trial accounts have this restriction).
The wolf will have his belly full and the seep will remain whole.
Let´s call a spade a spade: Cheap leasing is nepotism. You are right: Nepotism is helpfull. It is great! For those who are inside the system. For the others it is the opposite. As you put it, “players who get cheap lease (= who have the right accomplices) stay longer in the gameworld”. Is that really a fair game?
@FG 07 - you failed to get my point. This players stay longer in the game, else under different circumstances they would have already liquidated time ago and the servers would be even emptied than they are now.
