Sure, I’m in
@AK: don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to implement a system in AS that grants certain periods of notice.
I merely responded to your "imagine your landlord told you you had to move out by midnight"-post.
living in Germany myself, I am aware of the law. fact is, when you rent here (or in any other country) you accept the conditions of the contract as well as the law, which, in our particular case here in Germany grants to a certain notice depending on time of contract.
playing AS, I (unlike, unfortunately, many others) I am aware of the conditions of the contract (one week garantueed minimum lease, no notice for cancellation, but termination only every seven days) and the laws (there are none to protect either lessee nor lessor) and thus sign my contracts based on those.
Honestly, I am just tired of all those people signing the cheapest contracts, not reading the actual conditions, taking advantage of benefits such as no notice when they want to terminate, but then complaining and blaming the world how unfair everything is.
don't sign anything if you don't know the conditions. resume some responsibility for your actions. that's "all" I'm asking for. not referring to you, but generally speaking, humans are idiots and either incapable or unwilling to accept any self-responsibility.
@Yukawa: Off topic, but I totally agree. But the trend of people not taking responsibility also comes from politics. There’s a law or regulation for very every little dipshit, taking the population by the hand on every occasion, just like babies.
Get rid of a whole bunch of laws and people will start to have to think again on their own. We need a rough framework, but not detailed rules for every stupid exception.
1 Like
@AK: don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to implement a system in AS that grants certain periods of notice.
I merely responded to your "imagine your landlord told you you had to move out by midnight"-post.
living in Germany myself, I am aware of the law. fact is, when you rent here (or in any other country) you accept the conditions of the contract as well as the law, which, in our particular case here in Germany grants to a certain notice depending on time of contract.
playing AS, I (unlike, unfortunately, many others) I am aware of the conditions of the contract (one week garantueed minimum lease, no notice for cancellation, but termination only every seven days) and the laws (there are none to protect either lessee nor lessor) and thus sign my contracts based on those.
Honestly, I am just tired of all those people signing the cheapest contracts, not reading the actual conditions, taking advantage of benefits such as no notice when they want to terminate, but then complaining and blaming the world how unfair everything is.
don't sign anything if you don't know the conditions. resume some responsibility for your actions. that's "all" I'm asking for. not referring to you, but generally speaking, humans are idiots and either incapable or unwilling to accept any self-responsibility.
Fair enough.
My basic point is not only to protect the lessee's here, but in first place to breath some more life into AS' almost dead aircraft market - without creating a new market from scratch which would be in order of course.
If a lessee is in danger to get a last minute cancelation, he'll be reluctant to sign player-to-player contracts which in the end hurts the lessors. With a notice period, lessors could ask higher prices as the lessees' risk is reduced or at least calculable.
My problem with your definition is just that I don't see any contract conditions given in AS. All I know is that I pay weekly and have my deposit returned in the end.
So if there's neither defined conditions (no notice time!) nor law, then I'd consider any actions to conform bona fides (roughly like §241 ff BGB)
Well, the conditions are as you described: no background laws in AS
Deposit
Weekly rate
Term of one week that will be prolonged automatically if no one terminates
No period of notice
Like it, hate it, fight for a change (which I realky wouldn’t mind for the same reasons you mentioned), but don’t sign anything based on these conditions and then complain if the other party make use of them.
Well, the conditions are as you described: no background laws in AS
Deposit
Weekly rate
Term of one week that will be prolonged automatically if no one terminates
No period of notice
Like it, hate it, fight for a change (which I realky wouldn’t mind for the same reasons you mentioned), but don’t sign anything based on these conditions and then complain if the other party make use of them.
Where is that lack of notice period written down?
You know it, I know it, but is there something that makes it clear to everyone in game?
Common sense would imply there’s one.
Just to be clear:
I neither hate it or like it, I simply avoid player-to-player lease which is quite sad for such game.
My aim here simply is to make the game better. A simple notice period added would make it more realistic and would breath life into player-to-player interaction.
@AK: I am totally with you that it should be implemented.
Regarding the currebt situation, though, it is us Germans and those with a similar hustice system that always assume there is a background law governing anything that is not explicitly written down.
Take anglosaxian law, e.g. If it is not written down in the contract, there is no regulation for it. Or take any country without a functioning legal system (which is far fetched but still the majority of countries in numbers and regarding living arrangements).
So, it is always a matter of what you are used to as to what you are expecting.
AS is an online game, interbationally based, so take nothing for granted abd ASK if in doubt. (Once again, not directed at AK directly)
I never really had a problem with player to player leasing because I talk to the lessor before signing anything. Works just fine.
...
Regarding the currebt situation, though, it is us Germans and those with a similar hustice system that always assume there is a background law governing anything that is not explicitly written down.
Take anglosaxian law, e.g. If it is not written down in the contract, there is no regulation for it. …
Agreed, kind of.
So let’s look at it the anglo-saxian /-american way:
Like I already asked in #26:
Where is the lack of notice period written down in the contract / game world?
I still don’t see it, consequently and as you say it is NOT part of the contract.
As such, either party could cancel “last minute”. Sure.
But: the other party could then claim damages!
Which brings me back to #13: the system in AS is either flawed or that of a totalitarian banana republic.
So either do it the simple way and introduce a period of notice, or the complex way of working with damages.
I love the damages way.... ;-)
As such, either party could cancel "last minute". Sure.
But: the other party could then claim damages!
Which brings me back to #13: the system in AS is either flawed or that of a totalitarian banana republic.
So either do it the simple way and introduce a period of notice, or the complex way of working with damages.
OK. But then you have to demonstrate what damages you have been caused. Can you elaborate on what damages you would claim?
I haven't seen the new posts here since my last one, so I'm a little bit late with that one, but I just don't understand what you are talking about? A very specialised german law shouldn't be relevant in any way, same for any customer rights worldwide. This is a business simulation, so stay with B2B laws to find a realistic solution. B2B contracts don't need or do not have a notice period (by law) in many parts of the world, or only have a very small period as minimum standard. This is part of the business world all have to deal with, and it should be part of a business simulation.
That does not mean that I support the current system, in fact, I see some points of how it could be made better (exclude/include countries, customisable contract length, contract only after contact, etc.). And even if there's a consensus about a notice period that would be fine for me - but the discussion should be based on real facts out of the B2B world, and nothing else.
OK. But then you have to demonstrate what damages you have been caused. Can you elaborate on what damages you would claim?
Even though I think this entire discussion (AS vs. real business) is absurd, let me try just for the fun of it.
Let’s assume the following scenario:
A A380 is leased. Contract (AS-style) is signed Saturday, 1200Z.
Saturday, one week later:
Your 380 sits at the gate, cabin installed at your cost, crew (on your payroll) ready, fueled up, aiframe catered and prepared, 500 pax ready to board.
1150Z: lessor calls in, cancels the contract. You’ll be without an aicraft in 10mins.
What would you probably claim?
Compensation for telling 500 pax they aint going anywhere, 30 unemployed crew maybe, 200000kg of fuel plus servicing. Not to forget the $$$ cabin. Probably add the short term follow ups (next flight etc.)
Obviousely, such a scenario is too absurd to even be discussed. Neither lessee nor lessor would sign such contract.
What remains is the question translated for AS:
What damages could I claim in AS in such case?
-
I’m losing an aiframe all of a sudden
-
and the often highly valuable slot together with it
-
I need to look for a replacement
Worst case (A380, 300 seats, four flights/day):
Aircraft gone, competitor takes slots, no more slots for me:
I’m losing 4x7x300=8400 pax => hub has close to 100% connecting pax at a profit of 50$/ticket => 16.800pax x 50$/pax = 840000$/week in profits.
As claiming damages doesn’t make much sense in game, all I’m asking for is a period of notice that is long enough to enable to lessee to arrange a replacement.
Again, personally I don’t care much as my serious airlines simply don’t lease from other players for said reasons.
I just would see this as a huge improvement for the game and honestly don’t understand the arguments against
...but the discussion should be based on real facts out of the B2B world, and nothing else.
Of course.
But show me only one such contract (aircraft lease) without set notice periods. Just one.
Thing is, in AS there’s barely any contract. If you look at a real lease contract, you’ll see a humungous paperwork with pages over pages defining termination of contract and notice periods stand alone.
the b2b leasing function is simply wrong-designed. it is pure nonsense that it is allowed to cancel leasing contracts after one week and without notice.
this design flaw is abused by players and just creates a lot of negative emotions.
it should be possible to cancel leasing contracts but with a notice of t least half a year or even one year.
then only companies who really want to act as leasing enterprises will remain in that business.
the b2b leasing function is simply wrong-designed. it is pure nonsense that it is allowed to cancel leasing contracts after one week and without notice.
this design flaw is abused by players and just creates a lot of negative emotions.
it should be possible to cancel leasing contracts but with a notice of t least half a year or even one year.
then only companies who really want to act as leasing enterprises will remain in that business.
According to the idea that a week in AS corresponds to about a month in real life that would correspond to a RL leasing period of 4-8 years.
Are you sure?
i am not sure that your 1:4 ratio is correct, but even if so then my suggestion would correspond with a real life leasing contract for 2-4 years. that is quite reasonable, maybe even short. i believe an average leasing contract is much longer.
According to the idea that a week in AS corresponds to about a month in real life that would correspond to a RL leasing period of 4-8 years.
Are you sure?
As has been previousely said, 6 days notice period should be perfectly ok for AS.
Real contracts differ from case to case and pending on basic terms.
I’ve seen one (widebody lease) that set a 540 business days (two years) notice period for a lessor cancelation and 270 for the lessee for example.
Just stumbled across…
For some facts out of the real B2B world, below is a link to a lease agreement for N777UA (United Airlines 777-222)
Searching the document, I get more than 200 hits where periods are agreed…
The perfect good night lecture 
That’s not what we want in AS right. So is it really too much to ask for a simple set in stone (law) 5 or 6 days notice period?
Just stumbled across...
For some facts out of the real B2B world, below is a link to a lease agreement for N777UA (United Airlines 777-222)
Searching the document, I get more than 200 hits where periods are agreed…
The perfect good night lecture
That’s not what we want in AS right. So is it really too much to ask for a simple set in stone (law) 5 or 6 days notice period?
5 or 6 days is quite useless
imagine you lease cheap old aircrafts like md-80 with a startup and after a week your contract gets cancelled. neither do you have the money to replace your aircrafts by new ones, nor might proper types of used aircrafts be available.
all your money for cabin is gone and your airline will go down.
i dont see a meaningful purpose to give such a tool to destroy airlines into the hands of players.
not ll will act that bad but some do it
Well, then don’t lease from players. It’s that simple. Nobody forces you to get aircraft from another player that acts like a dick, no?
1 Like