So, while looking for some aircraft to lease for my subsidiary, I found a C100 really cheap on the market. The original bid was around 20% of the full value. So I bid on the the aircraft, and a bidding war resulted. To keep a long story short, I won the aircraft, with a lease payment of $185,500, which is less than $10000 a week than a single aircraft ordered new from Bombardier.
I guess I had stumbled across someone trying to lease an aircraft for cheap, as after I had won the auction, the airline leasing the plane terminated the lease. Coincidentally the airline that was leasing the plane is operated by the same person who locked the last thread on airlines leasing planes for next to nothing.
So my question is, how is this legal? The majority of people on the now closed thread argued that leasing an aircraft on the cheap was OK, as the bidding was availble to everybody. So while true in this case, the leasing seems will be terminated until the intended airline wins the aircraft. Seems shady to me.
When I found the aircraft, the weekly payment was under $20,000 a week, which is FAR UNDER the weekly leasing rate if ordered from the builder. That seems to fly directly in the face of the AirlineSim rule, "All activities your holding is involved in should be with the intention of making a profit." At that rate, it would take the airline who put the aircraft up for bid, 1930 weeks or 37 years to earn its investment back. Hardly making a profit at that rate.
I have though about reported the airline who put the aircraft up for bid, however since it's run by a staffmember, I really doubt much will be done about it.
I see nothing wrong with it. Leases from private lessors are inherently risky and I had the same thing happen to me a few years back when I leased a cheap 73G. Actually full 5 of them. At 90% off the retail price. There was no bidding war, but I found the leases canceled the next morning. Just suck it up and understand that some things were not meant to be and that God/Universe/Destiny had other plans for that aircraft.
You are one of the biggest airlines on that game world. Do you really miss one cheap lease? Do you really need to get upset about a value of something that you probably earn with your airline in less than 2 minutes?
There are two factors at play here. Cheap leases are allowed and that’s the way it is. Private lessors can cancel leases at any moment they wish and they can do so without notice. As can you. That’s the way it is. You were unlucky enough to have encountered combination of both factors in one situation. Good luck next time.
Since you talk about me, I am happy to reply directly to you.
Let me understand that properly. The player with the by far biggest airline on the world bids on an aircraft with his subsidiary that is the worlds no 13 from an airline that is no 106 that offers surprisingly an aircraft at less than 20% of the normal price.
As you mentioned you saw other threads, I would assume, you immediately knew, that this wasn’t a normal transaction but one “known” to help other players get a faster start in an existing world. Yet you try to get a personal advantage and outbid anybody else. Once the aircraft lease gets cancelled, you are upset and complain about it? Why? Do you fear a new fellow player taking away a few pax from you?
I bought a few CS100 specifically to help a friend with his new airline on Gatow. Offering cheap leases is explicitly allowed and about the only allowed way to support another player. How am I suppose to feel, when a big player, with probably billions on his accounts, is looking for an advantage from my altruistic behavior? Of course I will cancel the lease. And I will continue to do so. If possibly another new player had snatched it at a really low price I might have acted differently. But I do not feel in any way obliged to subsidize player no 1 on this server.
Now in general terms. Yes, the cheap leases practice can be deemed problematic. Should this be allowed or not? Is cancelling a lease immediately after winning a bid unfair or not? I honestly invite all others to voice out their opinions in this poll here that I started…
Very well said, Matth. The OP perfectly knew what was the deal, and I would dare to say he even knew the lease would be canceled soon after yet he entered into a bidding war. I would say he did it with an explicit purpose to stir the waters looking to generate trouble.
Since you talk about me, I am happy to reply directly to you.
Let me understand that properly. The player with the by far biggest airline on the world bids on an aircraft with his subsidiary that is the worlds no 13 from an airline that is no 106 that offers surprisingly an aircraft at less than 20% of the normal price.
Airline size means nothing in this case.
As you mentioned you saw other threads, I would assume, you immediately knew, that this wasn't a normal transaction but one "known" to help other players get a faster start in an existing world. Yet you try to get a personal advantage and outbid anybody else. Once the aircraft lease gets cancelled, you are upset and complain about it? Why? Do you fear a new fellow player taking away a few pax from you?
It has been argued that the cheap leases is ok because everyone has a shot at the lease, as it is on the open market. If we are supposed to "know" that the plane is not intended for everyone, than that argument does not hold water, and the "open market" is not one. I would have gotten no "personal advantage", other than getting another aircraft, as I pointed out the final price was not cheap
I bought a few CS100 specifically to help a friend with his new airline on Gatow. Offering cheap leases is explicitly allowed and about the only allowed way to support another player. How am I suppose to feel, when a big player, with probably billions on his accounts, is looking for an advantage from my altruistic behavior? Of course I will cancel the lease. And I will continue to do so. If possibly another new player had snatched it at a really low price I might have acted differently. But I do not feel in any way obliged to subsidize player no 1 on this server.
You have every right to cancel the lease, just as I have every right to bid on an aircraft on the open market. To be shocked that someone bid on an aircraft that was put on the open market cheap is naive. I will continue to bid on aircraft that are on the open market if I think it is a good deal.
The following is a perfectly plausible scenario. So this is my take.
How about this: Somehow I feel Matth has a personal dislike for you and that was the sole and only reason why the lease was cancelled. It had nothing to do with cheap price or anything, Matth dislikes you and that was the reason the lease was cancelled. As you correctly pointed out the final price was not cheap. So if the issue was not price, it had to do with personal al sympathy or antipathy. The rules do not prohibit not cooperating with someone because of personal dislike. I had a lease cancelled by a TripleX.
It has been argued that the cheap leases is ok because everyone has a shot at the lease, as it is on the open market. If we are supposed to “know” that the plane is not intended for everyone, than that argument does not hold water, and the “open market” is not one. I would have gotten no “personal advantage”, other than getting another aircraft, as I pointed out the final price was not cheap
You have every right to cancel the lease, just as I have every right to bid on an aircraft on the open market. To be shocked that someone bid on an aircraft that was put on the open market cheap is naive. I will continue to bid on aircraft that are on the open market if I think it is a good deal.
Guys please keep to the topic and not descend into pointless posts
Update: I’ve now hidden / removed the last 3 posts as they had nothing to do with the original subject. Either keep to the original subject or we close the thread
One would think that someone who was caught cheating in this game would want to keep a low profile, but I guess not.
Trust me attacking other members in the forum or getting into a brawl with staff members will do you no good, I should no, I am the most experienced I believe on that topic
So, while looking for some aircraft to lease for my subsidiary, I found a C100 really cheap on the market. The original bid was around 20% of the full value. So I bid on the the aircraft, and a bidding war resulted. To keep a long story short, I won the aircraft, with a lease payment of $185,500, which is less than $10000 a week than a single aircraft ordered new from Bombardier.
I guess I had stumbled across someone trying to lease an aircraft for cheap, as after I had won the auction, the airline leasing the plane terminated the lease. Coincidentally the airline that was leasing the plane is operated by the same person who locked the last thread on airlines leasing planes for next to nothing.
So my question is, how is this legal? The majority of people on the now closed thread argued that leasing an aircraft on the cheap was OK, as the bidding was availble to everybody. So while true in this case, the leasing seems will be terminated until the intended airline wins the aircraft. Seems shady to me.
When I found the aircraft, the weekly payment was under $20,000 a week, which is FAR UNDER the weekly leasing rate if ordered from the builder. That seems to fly directly in the face of the AirlineSim rule, "All activities your holding is involved in should be with the intention of making a profit." At that rate, it would take the airline who put the aircraft up for bid, 1930 weeks or 37 years to earn its investment back. Hardly making a profit at that rate.
I have though about reported the airline who put the aircraft up for bid, however since it's run by a staffmember, I really doubt much will be done about it.
If you are who I am thinking of, I believe I was the one in that bidding war with you. And, like you, I won one of these aircraft also (a different auction) just to have my lease promptly canceled. While I suppose it is legal, it's a pretty crappy thing to do, since it ends up costing the winner money at the end of the day.
I was given the explanation that the company offering the lease was "trying to help a small company out." That's great and all, but if it's on the open market, it is fair game for everyone. It's not the winner's fault that they wanted the aircraft to go to a specific person. Meanwhile, because we got caught in that, it costs us money.
Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, just kind of annoying and thoughtless on the part of the lessor.
I’m still surprised. You must have billions on your account and can possibly afford to preorder a couple dozens of planes for whenever you need them quickly. Now when you see a super cheap aircraft on the market, what do you think?
Oh nice, a cheap aircraft. I can make some more profit
Wow, a cheap aircraft. I better make sure nobody else can get it so I push up the price as much as possible
It must be for someone. Nobody would offer a brand new aircraft for that price without a special reason. I have to mess with that!
Option 4: there is a really cheap plane ok the market. Hey, a private lessor. He for sure has plans with that plane - so I keep off my hands in this auction.
Option 4: there is a really cheap plane ok the market. Hey, a private lessor. He for sure has plans with that plane - so I keep off my hands in this auction.
Then it isn't an open market, now is it?
You were active in the now closed thread about this. You posted that cheap leases are ok since anyone can bid on it while they are availble. Now I should leave it alone? I should assume the motives of the lessor? Especially since when I bid on the aircraft, there where no previous bids?
However both you and Matth are wrong.
Option 5. I need an aircraft. There is an aircraft availble which fits the parameters that I am looking for(i.e type, age and price). I bid on it.
Option 4: there is a really cheap plane ok the market. Hey, a private lessor. He for sure has plans with that plane - so I keep off my hands in this auction.
I beg to differ. Many private lessors are meant for the public, the state of the lessor shall not matter in an open market.
@yukawa Surely not, bidding wars can be fun to a certain point but at one point it will only destroy for the new player.
I dont understand what is left to discuss? Helping new players with an open and fair selection process is a fantastic gesture. As it is an open market which shall stay open the questions about moral rises. Shall the biggest player in the world steal planes meant for newbies? No. Shall experienced, staff or UAB members lease hundreds of planes to each other for nothing? No. Shall everyone bid on all aircraft? Yes.
If you are who I am thinking of, I believe I was the one in that bidding war with you. And, like you, I won one of these aircraft also (a different auction) just to have my lease promptly canceled. While I suppose it is legal, it's a pretty crappy thing to do, since it ends up costing the winner money at the end of the day.
I was given the explanation that the company offering the lease was "trying to help a small company out." That's great and all, but if it's on the open market, it is fair game for everyone. It's not the winner's fault that they wanted the aircraft to go to a specific person. Meanwhile, because we got caught in that, it costs us money.
Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, just kind of annoying and thoughtless on the part of the lessor.
This.
People who responded to this are hung up on the size of my airline, but lets look at it a different way. Since I am not trying to paint Matth in a bad light here, take away the specific example I used and look at the practice as a whole.
An airline puts up a plane on the cheap, hoping to help out a specific airline. Another company sees it, they are somewhat small, with a fleet size of around 20 a/c. They win the auction, tie up a bunch of money in seats, leasing deposits and crew. The lessor cancels the lease, as it didn't go the desired airline. That can really hurt an airline at that size, at that stage of a company. It is a crappy thing to do and should be looked at.
You can always ask first. I once saw several aircraft at about 60 percent value. The first thing I did was to message the airline in question if the leases were open to anyone or if they were made for a specific player. Only after receiving the positive reply did I bid on them. That way I assured that the aircraft leases will not be canceled soon thereafter. It’s not that difficult to send in game message.