Moderator edit: Removed the markups, that’s a bit too much detail. Let the players experiment themselves a bit.
Hi Matth,
I don't agree with you. And it would like to know on what grounds or rules you have based your decision to censor me.
To everybody who reads this,
strangely enough I also received a private message from another player, asking me to remove the information from my posting. A short but literal quote below:
"I never give such information publicly, and it might be a good idea to reconsider removing those markups from the post, and sending them by private message if necessary, but with some guys we agreed we would not post markups publicly."
To me it looks like Matth could well be one of those guys. In that case he abuses his power as a moderator.
I dont post markups publicly and have agreed with a couple other players not to do it because it might ruin parts of the experience for new players. With that said I am very open sharing my strategies with players who know the game and I know I wont spoil anything. I also have no problem whatsoever with such strategies being shared by others and I believe it is completely wrong to remove such posts. Although I dont condemn Matth in this as there are no clear (approved by UAB) guidelines in place for moderators.
I can’t see a reason why the thread is censored. I would like to ask Matth to stop this censorship immediately. Jan, please feel free to rewrite what you wanted to state. And to that group of players who don’t want to share markups or numbers: do whatever you do but stop immediately to force others to have the same opinion.
My stand is the following and that's why I censored the post.
If you publish this kind of detail, then we are just one step away from publishing the internal formulas of the game. Make it public to everybody and all players will know EXACTLY what they have to do to "win" the game.
It would totally ruin the sense and joy for players (in my opinion) and therefore I would strongly object against that. If you want to share it privately, I don't care and mind, but posting it publicly, I truly believe, it is not reasonable.
when you learn how to play the piano, nobody tells you to experiment until you can play Chopin. If you think this argument is far fetched, your argument that I was one step away from publishing the internal formulas of the game is also far fetched. Jeez, I studied Lating-Greek and know nothing about mathematics :-)
At this moment, many players fail several times before they manage to keep an airline afloat. Some of these people are happy to keep experimenting until they find the holy grail. Others are happy to get information that is concrete and helpful. In this case a player asked for prices so I gave my prices.
As I wrote in my other post (that could be moved to this topic) I was urged to remove the information in my post because it would help his competitors. So censoring my post helps one experienced player to fend off his probably less experienced competitors.
Censoring information puts you on a slippery path... Is it okay to say that I use full beds in business class ? That is exact information. Is it okay to say that adding extra flight attendants is cost effective ? Is it different if I say "in a 739 I use all 10 flight attendants". That is exact information. How do you decide what information can be published ? And how do you decide what is best for the players ? And for which players ?
My neighbour had his tomcat castrated... for his own good. And believe me, my neighbour is convinced it is for the best of his cat. But I don't know if the cat agrees ;-)
This is the first time that I know off that a posting is censored because it is not in the interest of the players. I think the players are big boys (or girls) who can decide for themselves if they want to copy a price setting or not. If they are not interested, they will ignore the information.
I have given my business model to many players. In great detail. Nobody has ever complained that I ruined the joy of playing. And nobody has literally copied my business model. They use what they like, and they change things according to their own preferences. And one year later they tell me something they discovered that I did not even know. And I don't complain either.
Interesting discussion and a difficult to solve problem.
I regard myself as a new, not very experienced player and after much thought I come to the conclusion that Matth was right with his caution. So detailed, bare information would actually take me the fun of the game. Or frustrate me, because my competitors, who are really just interested in "winning", use this information - while I try to experiment on my own. See how Hoover develops. Some obviously have the "right" information from others or from own experiences from other worlds, some have not. Would have been great in my mind, when these "old winning formulas" would not work in this new world in the same way like in an old world.
Back to what Matth did: on the other hand, this knowledge is in the world and will be hand-handed to proteges and confidants, who then can outnumber their unsuspecting competitors. Has a bit of the atomic bomb - we can ban it, but it is in the world and who tells us that not many countries secretly built some.
Long story short: please make such information like above less valuable, I would like the AS team to make some movement so that static secrets are not worth the same everywhere (in all AS worlds and countries).
I see that my curiosity has grown to this discussion so I’d like to add here my point. Firstly, as Jan has said, I would never ever copy his or anybody else’s strategy or business model. I have mine, it makes me some money and I am happy to improve it. Some points that anyone of you makes about the gameplay I am glad to use as some kind of inspiration for my airlines. I try to adapt some things to my business model. If they say that in economy you can put luxurious seating, I will analyse my airline and see where I can improve something, then I play with service and prices and etc.
What Jan has published was very interesting for me because I’m very curious about strategies of others players. He didn’t have to share what he shared, I or anyone else haven’t made him to do that, it’s his right. My experience from the game didn’t change a bit and I am just happy to know that in AS you can create a lot of different models to suceed.
first of all I would like to thank Matth. For his work as a moderator, and for always remaining friendly and polite when dealing with a player who charges like as bull towards a red flag. I am also happy that Matth and his colleagues have decided it is okay to post information that explains how to manage a successful airline.
@fug001
It can be fun to have experienced neighbours, if they don't squeeze your airline out of the country in three months time. It is not possible to "undiscover" knowledge, so the only way to give everybody the same chances is to change the rules. Or you can make the knowledge less valuable by distributing it.
Martin is working on new passengers. When these new passengers are introduced, that part of the game will be new terrain for everybody... at least for a couple of months ;-)
I understand and appreciate that you don't want too much information. I would hate it if someone was looking over my shoulder and telling me to use such seats, to offer wine instead of beer, and the schedule a flight to that airport. But nobody is watching over your shoulder, and you are not forced to operate Airbus, use this seat and sell your tickets at that price.
And let's be honest, on the forum you can read far more messages from people who are frustrated because they have failed three times in a row, than from players who are frustrated because there is too much information available...
The game is very much trial and error, I think people are need to calm down. It took me months to realise how important connections were and even longer for ORS rating and how to make it 99.
It would be a very lousy and cheap game if the information of prices would be the only relevant value in the game to win - wouldn’t it?
Searching the forum will give everybody more relevant and important informations than some numbers. I am wondering if all these threads now will be censored.
first of all I would like to thank Matth. For his work as a moderator, and for always remaining friendly and polite when dealing with a player who charges like as bull towards a red flag.
It can be fun to have experienced neighbours, if they don’t squeeze your airline out of the country in three months time. It is not possible to “undiscover” knowledge, so the only way to give everybody the same chances is to change the rules. Or you can make the knowledge less valuable by distributing it.
Martin is working on new passengers. When these new passengers are introduced, that part of the game will be new terrain for everybody… at least for a couple of months
And the next 100% agreement from me. Would have been great to have had the new passenger classes for Hoover‘s start, I hope they will be implemented in this world soon.
I agree that it is no fun if the exact innards of the game is published and we can 'game' the game. There needs to be proper interaction and trial and error. Thats the fun part
However, considering myself to be of mild intelligence I have tried and failed with this game a number of times before and I'm in a quandry about how best to continue. I certainly have looked around for other games that might be 'better'. I use quotes around better because I think Airline Sim has by far the best interface, look and feel and all round quality about it. The real time nature can be a challenge, in terms of game play reward, but I can see how in the long term the pay offs are high. But other games offer more 'playability'
I'd muse about the following;
1) Old games need to be closed to new players
It is virtually impossible to gain a foothold in the old long term games.
Why not leave them running for those in them but close them to new joiners?
2) Demand
I cannot get my head around this one. Unlike another (not real time) game, which does show route demand, I cannot find a way to research demand here. In the real world such information is available to airlines, albeit with margins of error (possibly large ones)
But even without actual figures I know for a fact that EI (Aer Lingus) connect Dublin to regional French cities such as Nice, Marseille and Bordeaux with a very full A320 at least daily. I work with the aviation section in my real life and I know margins on these flights are good. They also have competition on most routes from FR (Ryanair). Yet none of this is modelled in the game. My routes attract near zero demand. I have tried DUB - NCE, BOD & MRS in 3 games now.
Think about this - in the real world when an airline sells 100% of its seats on a flight - it continues to get calls and hits on its website for that date and route pair... valuable information which is collected. This is lost in the game.
Conclusion
I don't it easy - that would be unfair but I can only see two major issues with the same. One is the dominant power of incumbents and the second is the paucity of clarity over where to fly.
This game is all about connections. Creating a hub system and a network of good interline partners will help you to full out your flights. Of course, on old servers it may be hard to set up a hub in DUB, as Europe may be already taken by major players. Before eyou become a pro (you need to be at least a semi pro to actually have a breathing chance in markets like USA, China, Japan, Canada, Australia, Europe, Brazil, India, Turkey) unless there has not been a major opening. You need to have at east a passable understanding of game mechanics to have a chance in those markets on an old years long running server.
You should try to get understanding of game mechanics in less contested markets like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Peru, Venezuela, Russia, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Mexico Guadalajara (especially Saudi Arabia and Iran are great markets with lots of local and regional demand and frequently forgotten by other players) until you get understanding of hub system, connections, interlines, and analyzing traffic flows.
Demand in Airlinesim is not published, but traffic flows can very well be researched by looking on other companies and using such tools as AS Route Maps. Actually, ASRM is THE tool to analyze traffic flows if you have got at least some basic analytical skills.
While Ryanair is based on O/D direct demand, Aero Linus brings people to Nice or Marseille who are in bulk part connecting passengers in real life, especially from transatlantic flights. And the same connection model applies to Airlinesim.
