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Bug in Performance check tool?


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#1 alex_brunius

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 10:43

Used tool to check for A220-300 on route JFK - ARN

 

Changing cruise speed more than 1km/h in either direction before pressing submit results in "This aircraft cannot operate the specified mission." despite all checks for technical limits showing ok.



#2 highscore2

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 11:07

Not on Gatow.



#3 yukawa

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 11:23

Nor on hoover
“Crying about the economy is a strategy. It won’t get you a job, but it will keep Kleenex in business.
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― Jarod Kintz, 99 Cents For Some Nonsense

#4 Rainer

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 11:35

I have checked on Pearls. Possible speed 829 - 830 - 831 km/h on JFK - ARN and v,v,


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#5 Spezialist

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 11:40

It should be the same on all game worlds - I'd assume the checks on Gatow weren't made properly.

 

And it does make perfect sense: The route is very long and the A220-300 is operating at the edge of its performance capabilities - changing the cruise speed to much (and thereby increasing fuel consumption) is just not possible, because the aircraft can't take any more fuel.

This effect happens for all aircraft types when getting close to max range.


Posted ImagePosted Image

#6 highscore2

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 11:56

Sorry, I have not read exactly - more than 1 km is missing.

831 and 829 do work.



#7 alex_brunius

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 14:58

It should be the same on all game worlds - I'd assume the checks on Gatow weren't made properly.

 

And it does make perfect sense: The route is very long and the A220-300 is operating at the edge of its performance capabilities - changing the cruise speed to much (and thereby increasing fuel consumption) is just not possible, because the aircraft can't take any more fuel.

This effect happens for all aircraft types when getting close to max range.

 

Playing on Otto IV here.

 

If the aircraft was at the edge of it's performance capabilities, why does it still have 660km more available in max range and why does it still have 56.2% of it's payload available with unmodified speed?

 

Is it reasonable that slowing down the speed by 2km/h ( so that the airplane fly slower and consume less fuel ) would mean that it loses 11.2 ton of payload or 700km of range?

 

If the trend was this bad I would also expect to see some radical changes for changing the speed by 1km/h, but I don't. Changing cruise speed with +-1 km/h result in identical fuel needs and payload...


Edited by alex_brunius, 08.10.2018 - 15:15.


#8 yukawa

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 15:19

This is the consequence from an imperfect performance calculation.
Fuel consumption is not based on actual load, but rather MTOW. Since the fuel tank capacity and route demand already match, increasing consumption in the slightest leads to a no-go situation.
The formula in place can not calculate the remaining available payload for this scenario.

Without a new performance calculation system, this situation will persist.
“Crying about the economy is a strategy. It won’t get you a job, but it will keep Kleenex in business.
”
― Jarod Kintz, 99 Cents For Some Nonsense

#9 alex_brunius

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 15:38

So is it a bug just in the performance check tool or will it also prevent you from flying such routes at different cruising speeds as well?



#10 highscore2

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 15:52

You will not be able to fly this route with this plane and different cruising speeds.



#11 Matth

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Posted 08.10.2018 - 15:54

You can't fly this with a speed override. It is not a bug.

 

Fuel is mostly calculated on real planes in fuel consumed per time (hour). So if you fly slower, you flight takes longer, therefore you burn more fuel. And if you look at the performance graph and if you are on the last part of the line, then you are flying with absolutely full tanks (max. volume filled). That means, you cannot take any more fuel, therefore you cannot change your speed (flying slower burns more, flying faster burns more). So you either can fly the mission, or you cannot. It's that simple.

 

A223.png

 

When you are within the horizontal part, or on the first slope, then you can trade payload against more fuel. That's why in this area you can use different speeds.

 

So, in the first part (horizontal line) you can take the maximum payload. The longer you want to fly, the more fuel you will need, but your limitation is the maximum take-off weight. You still have space to take more fuel.

 

The second part of the line, where it starts descending, you can fly further (by taking more fuel), but you have to unload some cargo and/or passengers. Neither payload nor fuel volume is at its maximum.

 

The last part is the most critical, where you basically have your fuel volume maxed out. And the longer you fly, the less payload you can take.

 

And yes, our performance system is very simplified, but it does reflect that correctly.


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#12 alex_brunius

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Posted 09.10.2018 - 00:39

You can't fly this with a speed override. It is not a bug.

 

Fuel is mostly calculated on real planes in fuel consumed per time (hour). So if you fly slower, you flight takes longer, therefore you burn more fuel. And if you look at the performance graph and if you are on the last part of the line, then you are flying with absolutely full tanks (max. volume filled). That means, you cannot take any more fuel, therefore you cannot change your speed (flying slower burns more, flying faster burns more). So you either can fly the mission, or you cannot. It's that simple.

 

A223.png

 

When you are within the horizontal part, or on the first slope, then you can trade payload against more fuel. That's why in this area you can use different speeds.

 

So, in the first part (horizontal line) you can take the maximum payload. The longer you want to fly, the more fuel you will need, but your limitation is the maximum take-off weight. You still have space to take more fuel.

 

The second part of the line, where it starts descending, you can fly further (by taking more fuel), but you have to unload some cargo and/or passengers. Neither payload nor fuel volume is at its maximum.

 

The last part is the most critical, where you basically have your fuel volume maxed out. And the longer you fly, the less payload you can take.

 

And yes, our performance system is very simplified, but it does reflect that correctly.

 

 

But I can fly with a speed override, the game allows me a speed override of 1km/h in this case here, and even if I set this override the game tells me I can fly on for another 660km or add another 11200 kg of payload compared to an empty plane.

 

Setting my cruise speed to be 2km/h lower however ( which IRL would mean SAVING fuel because the standard speed for airlines is to fly 6-8% faster than what is optimal for fuel consumption since time = money ) means that suddenly even if I fly with 10 kg of payload instead of 11200 kg or if I fly 650km shorter than otherwise I'm out of luck, I will not be able to do the flight.

 

In real life flying shorter distance or taking less payload means I consume less fuel, which would give me a higher marginal here.

 

Since the game does not model this when it comes to cruising speed overrides for long distance flights it is not realistic at all, which means either it's a bug, or the game was designed to not model reality. Until a developer say that they designed the game to not be realistic I choose to believe it's a bug. My belief based on everything else I have seen in the game lead me to believe that they strive for a realistic game, but clearly you don't agree.


Edited by alex_brunius, 09.10.2018 - 00:42.


#13 highscore2

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Posted 09.10.2018 - 06:50

Have you read what Matth as a member of the team has written? It is not a bug. Believe it or not. But it will not change.

#14 rubiohiguey2000

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Posted 09.10.2018 - 15:46

It is not a bug ... as a member of ADT I can affirm it's not a bug ...



#15 ianmanson

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Posted 09.10.2018 - 18:36

It's not a bug, a bug is something that happens unexpectedly than programmed. This is works as programmed (see above) therefore not a bug.



#16 alex_brunius

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Posted 11.10.2018 - 09:51

It's not a bug, a bug is something that happens unexpectedly than programmed. This is works as programmed (see above) therefore not a bug.

 

That is not the definition of what a bug is.

 

The definition of a bug is if something works differently then designer of the game intended it to do.

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Software_bug

 

For example if a programmer misunderstood what the game designer wanted, and coded something different it would be a bug even if it works exactly as programmed without errors.

 

What I am asking for is for the designer of the game to confirm that their intention and vision for the game was to have a range calculation that makes no sense and works nothing close to reality in regards to cruise speed overrides. Also please confirm that the intention of the performance check tool is to provide no feedback why the check fails but instead showing all "technical limitations" as OK.

 

If either of these two conditions was not intended then it's a bug.


Edited by alex_brunius, 11.10.2018 - 10:03.


#17 highscore2

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Posted 11.10.2018 - 10:04

Come on. Can someone close this stupid thread please?

Even if someone would confirm that "their intention and vision for the game was to have a range calculation that makes no sense and works nothing close to reality..." - what would then be your benefit?

Matth has already explained that the performance system is simplified. Nothing to add.

Perhaps you should look into it from your preffered and beloved reality aspect. And then tell us - which airline would fly JFK-ARN with A220?

 

Now stop complaining (or whatever you are doing), choose another plane for that route and share your strange visions with yourself but not with the community please. Thanks.



#18 ianmanson

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Posted 11.10.2018 - 11:48

Alex it’s very simple in AS. The designer and programmer are the same person. The intention of the speed override is to be able to use slots which wouldn’t be available without the speed override function. Has the function achieved that, yes it has. This was achieved by keeping the cruise speed as the most economic speed, if you speed up, there’s a penalty, if you put a slower speed it’s the equivalent of an enroute hold so therefore penalty. So by your definition(Wikipedia) NOT a bug

The crux of the issue in terms of realism is that the system will have lots of limitations on the basis of how cheap the game is, that is something as a player you have to accept. Companies pay a massive amount of money to have accurate flight planning software, well outside the scope for AS.

By the way I find it ironic that we are talking about realism and then using the words A220 and JFK-ARN

#19 alex_brunius

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Posted 12.10.2018 - 14:49

 

Even if someone would confirm that "their intention and vision for the game was to have a range calculation that makes no sense and works nothing close to reality..." - what would then be your benefit?

 

Then I would know that it's not a bug.

 

Everyone here seems to think it's perfectly fine that you can fly an airplane with between 50-80% cargo and passengers a certain route but if you change the speed 2km/h it's impossible to fly it even with 10% cargo and passengers. That makes no sense, why would you design a game to work in such a way?

 

The intention of the speed override is to be able to use slots which wouldn’t be available without the speed override function. Has the function achieved that, yes it has.

 

Except for in cases like JFK-ARN where you on the edge of your range, in these cases the function has not achieved it's intended goal.
 

 

I am also bringing up the related bug here, which is that the interface in the performance check tool does not explain to the player why you can't fly with speed override, it just doesn't work satisfactory with speed override but says that all checks are OK!

 

 

By the way I find it ironic that we are talking about realism and then using the words A220 and JFK-ARN

 

I want the game to use as realistic checks as possible, if it's not possible at all to fly an A220 from JFK-ARN in reality based on it's real range, then why is it possible to do so in the game?

 

If it is possible but not economical in reality, then why is it in the game?

 

 

I am trying to offer you an ability to resolve an issue/bug in the game and make it better by reporting it. If your not interested in me reporting bugs or strange quirks or ways to make the game better I can stop before I even got started.


Edited by alex_brunius, 12.10.2018 - 15:04.


#20 highscore2

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Posted 12.10.2018 - 15:02

Again and again - there is no bug to report. The design and programming of the simulation were made in the way the system still exists. As Matth already pointed out, it is a simplified system. Which was possible to code several years back.
This is one of several system components which could be reworked indeed. But resources are rare and meney also. Hence this will not change in the near future.

You can either accept it or continue to complain.
Let me say one laae thing. AS is by far the most developed simulation as a game without professional use for a daily price of a gum. There are quite some limitations and the simple performance system might be the most limiting. But we players have to accept it. Or leave it.




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