Tens of scheduled flights from PEK to TSN using LET and MA6?

I am totally amazed by a airline (you know whom I am talking about) that is running tens of flights connecting BEIJING (PEK) and TIANJIN (TSN) daily (on Riem). Beijing and Tianjin are twin cities no more than 100 miles from each other. Small planes like LET and MA6 are used for such a ridiculous route. Can you imagine a scenario that small prop planes take off one after another from a mega-airport like PEK?

I appreciate that there is a broad grey zone, but this is clearly an easy one. If this behavior is not regarded as “slot blocking”, what is “slot blocking”?

PLUS

In reality, there is not a single flight from PEK to TSN.

Could you be more specific as to what running tens of flights from PEK to TSN constitutes as; Is it 10 flights, 20, flights, 99 flights? Honestly, and this is my opinion on the matter, I don't think it should be considered slot blocking if the person is doing a fight schedule that is somewhat based in reality. An example could be offering hourly flights between the two cities. PEK, is an awesome city and I wish I had the foresight to have added more than a daily flights from my Hub. Oh well live and learn. Oh and looking at the 1% there are still good scheduling availability to schedule a flight to arrive in  the wee hours of the morning 3:35a, except Tuesday to which you would need to have that flight arrive at 4:00am  and depart say 5:55 am (hub time) with a Tuesday departure for 6:10am. So that's one schedule. Or don't schedule on Tuesday. You better hurry up and take it... come to think about it my new 737 should be coming in and I'll take it for myself it isn't taken by the time I'm ready to schedule the flight. 

*Update*

I assume you are talking about ZHONGGUO Airlines with their 36 daily departures. I think you are right it does look like slot blocking. I can't see any other reason to have that many flights and some are just one day at weird times. Maybe someone who is better at the rules could comment. 

I'm playing devil's advocate here.  -_-

per WIKI's definition

  • Resource Blocking: Resources (airport landing slots, used aircraft, etc) in the game are, ultimately, limited. Therefore, making use of them for no other reason than to deny their use to another player is expressly forbidden. This particularly concerns blocking off airport slots with dummy aircraft not eqipped with crew or seats, or timetabled in such a way as to ensure cancellations will occur. Please note that purchasing or leasing aircraft with the intention of transferring them between holdings controlled by a single player, by deleting the first holding further down the line, is, similarly, forbidden. Sales or leases within holdings you control, however, are allowed. Very short connecting flights are accepteable if they constitute a realistic service (for example, flights between nearby islands).

So the aircraft type is available in AS,  and everyone can buy it, the aircrafts are equipped with crew and seats, and not timetabled in such a way as to ensure cancellation. Per WIKI definition, no matter what you think of it, it doesn't constitute a resource/slot blocking. His airlines has been in operation since the world begin, and I believe has been reported thousand times, yet we still see the airline flying. Also this two airlines have more those fancy LET than him and I don't see them get reported this often.

http://riem.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/1210

http://riem.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/6954

I would love to be the advocate for this chinese airline, he get reported everytime and always win as the case against him is baseless.  ^_^

I love your advocating and I hope we can become friends.

I don't live in China so I wouldn't know if 36 flights, some only on 1 day at weird times, would constitute a realistic service. But then again most of the time tables on here are pretty unrealistic. So... I guess the 'OP' could give it the old college try, or if he really needs to get into PEK check the slot availability daily. I gave the OP a perfectly good time slot for a daily flight into and out of PEK, it will be up to them to decide to jump on it before I do.  

I'm playing devil's advocate here.  -_-

per WIKI's definition

  • Resource Blocking: Resources (airport landing slots, used aircraft, etc) in the game are, ultimately, limited. Therefore, making use of them for no other reason than to deny their use to another player is expressly forbidden. This particularly concerns blocking off airport slots with dummy aircraft not eqipped with crew or seats, or timetabled in such a way as to ensure cancellations will occur. Please note that purchasing or leasing aircraft with the intention of transferring them between holdings controlled by a single player, by deleting the first holding further down the line, is, similarly, forbidden. Sales or leases within holdings you control, however, are allowed. Very short connecting flights are accepteable if they constitute a realistic service (for example, flights between nearby islands).

So the aircraft type is available in AS,  and everyone can buy it, the aircrafts are equipped with crew and seats, and not timetabled in such a way as to ensure cancellation. Per WIKI definition, no matter what you think of it, it doesn't constitute a resource/slot blocking. His airlines has been in operation since the world begin, and I believe has been reported thousand times, yet we still see the airline flying. Also this two airlines have more those fancy LET than him and I don't see them get reported this often.

http://riem.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/1210

http://riem.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/6954

I would love to be the advocate for this chinese airline, he get reported everytime and always win as the case against him is baseless.  ^_^

Your examples are not so good. They have tons of LETs, but not blocking the slot by operating "mini" connection flights. There is a difference between commuter/ regional airlines and blocking slots. Though some of those flights are quite short, but both players are not using hundreds of LETs on those routes.

If I remember correctly, operating flights between airports in the same city (at least some cities) are not allowed in AS. The distance between Tianjin and Peking is about two hours driving. It is relatively a short distance. I will say the distances between some airports in the same city are even longer than this distance. It is legal to fly these routes and it sometimes occurs in the real life. If someone is using 737 plus aircrafts to fly these routes, it is still acceptable, but using LETs is definitely blocking the slots. Think about operating nearly 40 flights per day between CGK and Halim airport (it has a similar distance compared to Tianjin and Peking), whether it is making sense to you. 

You can definitely report this problem. I think the best way to solve this problem is changed the game a little so that for these routes, the passenger will be willing to take ground transportation than the flights. 

*devil's advocate mode ON*

I don't live in China so I wouldn't know if 36 flights, some only on 1 day at weird times, would constitute a realistic service. But then again most of the time tables on here are pretty unrealistic. So... I guess the 'OP' could give it the old college try, or if he really needs to get into PEK check the slot availability daily. I gave the OP a perfectly good time slot for a daily flight into and out of PEK, it will be up to them to decide to jump on it before I do.  

I don't live in China either, but you don't need to live in China, or anywhere else in the world, to know that a fleet of LET frequently taking off from a big airport is highly unrealistic. I can only the imagine how the pilot flying feels when 100nm miles from PEK, maybe just beginning on his Standard Terminal Arrival Procedure and the ATC told him to his minimum approach speed, because he was number 20 in landing sequence, and his preceding traffic is a fleet of LET410UVP, flying from nearby towns. So we are not arguing about its realistic but - as an advocate  -_- - about its legal term, whether the airline's action will be categorized as resource blocking and thus in violation of AS rules.

Your examples are not so good. They have tons of LETs, but not blocking the slot by operating "mini" connection flights. There is a difference between commuter/ regional airlines and blocking slots. Though some of those flights are quite short, but both players are not using hundreds of LETs on those routes.

If I remember correctly, operating flights between airports in the same city (at least some cities) are not allowed in AS. The distance between Tianjin and Peking is about two hours driving. It is relatively a short distance. I will say the distances between some airports in the same city are even longer than this distance. It is legal to fly these routes and it sometimes occurs in the real life. If someone is using 737 plus aircrafts to fly these routes, it is still acceptable, but using LETs is definitely blocking the slots. Think about operating nearly 40 flights per day between CGK and Halim airport (it has a similar distance compared to Tianjin and Peking), whether it is making sense to you. 

You can definitely report this problem. I think the best way to solve this problem is changed the game a little so that for these routes, the passenger will be willing to take ground transportation than the flights. 

I think one must be reminded that people in AS realm are crazy about flying. They HATE their ground transport, so much that they prefer to drive thru traffic jam to airport, spend some more money on airfare and board a flying sardine can to their 100 miles destination. So in the context of the game, the airline merely responding to market demand. If no one book the flight and he continues flying the route anyway, then it's could be considered resource blocking although it still doesn't fit as per definition. But I can tell he got full booking. 

  • New rule valid as of April 5th, 2012: Flights between airport of the same city/metropol area are forbidden. This is not valid on the Devau Game-World as ground traffic is deactivated on this game world. The following intra-city connections are forbidden:
Asia
	Bangkok: BKK/DMK

	Dubai: DXB/DWC

	Osaka: KIX/ITM

	Seoul: ICN/GMP

	Shanghai: SHA/PVG

	Taipeh: TPE/TSA

	Tehran: THR/IKA

	Tokyo: NRT/HND

	Europe

	Berlin: THF/TXL/SXF (/BER)

	London: LCY/LGW/LHR/STN/LTN

	Milan: MXP/LIN

	Moscow: SVO/DME/VKO

	Oslo: OSL/TRF/RYG

	Paris: CDG/ORY/LBG

	Rome: FCO/CIA

	Stockholm: ARN/NYO/BMA

	North America

	Chicago: ORD/MDW

	Dallas: DFW/DAL

	Houston: IAH/HOU

	Montreal: YUL/YMX

	New York: JFK/EWR/LGA

	Toronto: YYZ/YTZ

	Washington: IAD/DCA/BWI

	South America

	Buenos Aires: AEP/EZE

	Rio de Janeiro: GIG/SDU

	Sao Paulo: GRU/CGH

They definitely should put CGK/HLP on the list. CGK-HLP is 18 KM apart, and if they start selling chopper here, I would be the one starting air taxi services between this two airports. I don't know if it make sense comparing a shy 18KM to 100KMs but it doesn't make sense for me to fly some 18KM in an airplane. I will try put my own LET and let you know whether it's viable or not, couldn't believe I haven't think about it.

PEK-TSN however is 131KM apart and for comparison, I can pull out my own CGK-BDO flights served by my feeder airline, which is slightly closer at 118KM apart. The flight took 44 minutes from take-off to landing. A friend of mind once ferried A320 between CGK-BDO, actual flight just several minutes short of an hour. I used to drive or take bus between these two cities during my day off. Normally it takes 2.5-3 hours one way, but during weekend you could expect 4-5 hours, and up to 6 hours during public holiday. There is train service, but you need to buy the ticket like 3 months before if you don't want to seat on top of train, and also to get to a train station in the middle of the city has its own challenge. 

So with five fully booked flights a day, I flew 180 people every day on this route. Jakarta population is 10,000,000 and Bandung population is 2,500,000. Jakarta is the capital city of Indonesia and Bandung is the capital city of West Java Province. One might argue given the potential, just fly daily A320 or B737, but for this short route, people need more frequency rather than capacity. 

PEK-TSN using a fleet of LET is highly unrealistic and but the game mechanic support for this and nothing wrong as the flight mere replace the so much hated ground transport. For AS people living in China, these LETs are actually their busses with wings. The people there need it and they will pay for it. The airline merely provide people with the transportation they need.

You can make suggestion for game changes to address this issue, but before the change is implemented, don't you dare pointing finger to my supposed to be client and make baseless accusation.  -_-

*devil's advocate mode OFF*

please get your number right people  ^_^

I love your advocating and I hope we can become friends.

let's be friend.. 

and now I need to add more frequency on my CGK-BDO :D *brb*

I love your advocating and I hope we can become friends.

 

I don’t live in China so I wouldn’t know if 36 flights, some only on 1 day at weird times, would constitute a realistic service. But then again most of the time tables on here are pretty unrealistic. So… I guess the ‘OP’ could give it the old college try, or if he really needs to get into PEK check the slot availability daily. I gave the OP a perfectly good time slot for a daily flight into and out of PEK, it will be up to them to decide to jump on it before I do.

Well, I appreciate it. I am not interested in getting into PEK. I was investigating LET and found this shocking time table. I do believe that this is against the common sense. If a majority of players regard this behavior as unacceptable, it should be banned by the game rule.

*devil's advocate mode ON*

I am not on your side and am against props at large airports. I would suggest to forbid the usage of aircraft whit under 80 certified seats when the combined airports have over 15 bars and 60 certified seats when the airports are under 12 combined bars and lets only allowed on airports whit 10 conbined bars or less like in a real operating environment. Or atleast these roules should follow on the main airports of the area like no LETs in KUL but they can fly in SZB.

*devil's advocate mode ON*

Chinese don't  like flying at all. they would choose a train before a plane. The domestic flight market in China is horribly bad in the real life. 

I 'm not talking about the separation (distance). I 'm talking about the actual time it take for you to travel. If you use Google map, you can see it takes much more time for people to travel from CGK to BDO (estimate three hours)  than from Peking to Tianjin (estimate less than two hours). 

I also have a lot of flights from CGK to BDO, so don't make me looks like i'm not taking this advantage.  <_<

Chinese don't  like flying at all. they would choose a train before a plane. The domestic flight market in China is horribly bad in the real life. 

I flew Cathay business class from Hong Kong to Shanghai and it was perfect. To say it my self I did expect something like AA or Delta which are complete rubbish in all classes even rude crew in first and there first class is standard european or middle eastern business class and whit that rude crew and super air conditioned plane I will never fly AA or Delta again even if United is not much bettre I will have to fly it as I do not have a choice whit the other airlines being rubbish.

I flew Cathay buisness class from Hong Kong to Shanghai and it was perfect.

Cathay is really nice. I flew with them several times and it was great. I know people even travel from Shenzhen by car to Hong Kong in order to take their flights. If you travel in mainland travel, people are more willing to take four hours train than a flight. In the real life, there is no flight between Shenzhen and Hong Kong because people won't buy the ticket. When i was in shanghai and decided to travel to Nanking, people thought i was crazy when i was saying maybe i would take a flight. The shortest flight as i know in Chinese region is Hong Kong to Guangzhou, and not a lot of people like it.

That is not our problem this is a much bigger picture of getting china and the chinese people civilised and how I see this communist/Socialist/Patriotic rubbish wont lead them anywere and forcing urbanistaion is not urbanising people actually it makes it even worse in my opinion. 

If you want a longer discussion on my view on the forced chinese urbanisation and communism in general and my plan for the future china and politics of any kind you can PM me but it is nothing that I want or need to take here in public.

One thing you are all forgetting about is that it was stated about 18 months ago that flying between two very large airports with LETs is not OK and is considered resource blocking. I know PEK is a very large airport but I don’t know about the other one. If it is one or maximum two bars airport, then by early 2014 definitions it is OK. If it is a 4 or more bar airport it certainly is slot and resource blocking. There were airlines in LHR punished in early 2014 for doing exactly this.

Nevertheless, report it and AS and/or the UAB are taking a closer look. Using MA60 between Bejing and Tianjin is close to the borderline. Bejing - Shanghai is not lucrative either.

Chinese don't  like flying at all. they would choose a train before a plane. The domestic flight market in China is horribly bad in the real life. 

I 'm not talking about the separation (distance). I 'm talking about the actual time it take for you to travel. If you use Google map, you can see it takes much more time for people to travel from CGK to BDO (estimate three hours)  than from Peking to Tianjin (estimate less than two hours). 

I also have a lot of flights from CGK to BDO, so don't make me looks like i'm not taking this advantage.  <_<

Chinese people in AS realm definitely like flying and we are not operating real airline in real world but in AS realm. I didn't realise you operate airline in Indonesia, since you said CGK-HLP is similar to PEK-TSN. 

One thing you are all forgetting about is that it was stated about 18 months ago that flying between two very large airports with LETs is not OK and is considered resource blocking. I know PEK is a very large airport but I don't know about the other one. If it is one or maximum two bars airport, then by early 2014 definitions it is OK. If it is a 4 or more bar airport it certainly is slot and resource blocking. There were airlines in LA punished in early 2014 for doing exactly this.

How can I forget something I don't know. Are we required to scan for scattered rules in forum or blog post or even in other language forum. If they don't update the rules in appropriate link, don't expect people to be guided by those rules. Since they don't publicly announce verdict on all reported users, how would I know someone is punished?  

Because this was announced. And as the saying in my country goes, not knowing the law is not an excuse.

And there was a very similar thread a few months ago shortly after Riem start. I posted the same information there, so you do not even need to scan threads years back, just read the current ones.

Edit: the relevant information was actually posted in your own thread (rpandugita). So no excuse you didn’t know this was prohibited (even though you were just defending the offending player).

http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/8049-strategy-in-riem/

Well that's all good and dandy! But SOMEONE and I shan't name names has swooped in on my time SLOTs in PEK... You sir are an animal, you knew, you knew I wanted those slots.. Now my game is ruined and I need to reset! 

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! 

At least someone took my advice, I wish I could get a finder's fee or something for my hard work he who shan't be named! 

You need to reset because of a specific slot? Come on ... Don't take it serious ...

You need to reset because of a specific slot? Come on ... Don't take it serious ...

I was kidding. Was my response a little bit Dramatic? LOL